On this episode of We Rock DM Amplified, our guest speaker Gresham Harkless Jr. of Blue 16 Media talks about his background in digital marketing and offers insights on how to stay relevant in the tech industry. We discuss the future of SEO, AI technology, and the importance of being picky with clients. Gresham also shares his experiences with teaching and training others in the industry, and thoughts on how AI can enhance creativity without replacing it. Tune in to this episode for valuable tips on staying ahead in digital marketing and embracing the opportunities that come with change.
Download Transcript
Daniel:
Welcome back to We Rock DM Amplified, the podcast that amplifies your digital marketing and web prowess. We, your hosts, Daniel Bissett and Tricia Ulberg are thrilled to delve into the latest trends and strategies in the online realm. In today’s episode, we’re joined by a fantastic guest, Gresham Gresh W. Harkless Jr. Is the founder of Blue 16 Media and CB Nation and a ton of other companies and nonprofit organizations. and he’s eager to share his knowledge and expertise. So let’s gear up for a fun and insightful ride together, shall we? So Gresh, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. I followed your about link and I went here and then it took me over there and it took me over there. You’ve got so much going on. What’s the TLDR, the Too Long Didn’t Read about who you are and what you’re doing?
Gresham:
Yeah, absolutely. Dan and Tricia, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. And and the too long didn’t read is pretty much that I’m very much so a busy body, but a lot of what I do comes out to like being a journalist at heart. So I always like content. I love writing. I’ve always loved writing. And now we’re using the phrase content creators. But before it was just me like sometimes sitting down in front of a pad just writing things out. But I try to figure out whatever and whoever I want to try to help, you know, to impact and then I try to work backwards in terms of like creating content around there. So a lot of those links and that web of different things is because it’s just, how can I hopefully create value for the people I work with?
Tricia:
Very cool. I would be really excited, we can talk about this soon, but I’d be really excited to ask you what you think about AI these days and how that is impacting content writing. Yeah, that’s kind of a hot topic.
Daniel:
Are you using AI, Gresh, in any of your content creation? If so, what tools and how?
Gresham:
Yeah, you know, it’s so funny. I just had this conversation, I want to say last week at a networking group that I was in around AI and how now it seems that everything has, or at least they’re promoting that they have some aspect of AI.
Gresham:
So it’s almost that those that are quote unquote trying to get rid of it and don’t kind of want to welcome it are. kind of maybe ignoring the obvious where everybody is going to be in an AI in some form, shape, or fashion. So it’s definitely something that I think that is here to stay. I think what will be the big opportunity for marketers will be for people that are creating content and even leaders in general is how to kind of synthesize that AI information, whether to make sure that you’re asking the right questions for which is like. very underrated to be able to say, okay, the AI is not going to go inside your brain, at least not yet, to figure out exactly what it is that you’re trying to ask, is going to have to have that information asked in a certain type of way. So I think that’s probably the big opportunity is to be able to use the strategy and to leverage that. And it’s kind of in everything. So we use it in different tools. We use AI content writers, of course, you know, chat GPT and Google Bard, or of course, the biggest ones. I guess everyone’s talking about because they’re pretty much free to use to some degree. So he tested out some of those using everything from ad copy to actually looking at how blog posts are created and things like that. But I think once, if you assume that everybody’s going to use AI, then it’s always like, how do you go to Extra Mile? And I think Extra Mile is going to be coming back to… those people that are able to synthesize that information and go a step further to provide a quote from this well-respected person. Whatever that might be or what that looks like for the content is really like how you’re gonna be able to go that extra.
Tricia:
How do you see this affecting your ability to create, to write creative content? Do you feel like, do you think, feel like this is going to be something that you are going to work in tandem with your own style? Is that how you see that working?
Gresham:
Yeah, I think it’s basically like a cheat code. It’s going to allow you to kind of get past some of the things so that you can work on more of the creative things. I think I have this quote that I always say, the systems will set you free. And I think AI is one of those systems because I think it will allow the opportunity to be more creative because a lot of the nuts and bolts and things that we had to take more time or spend more energy on are kind of moved to the side. So now you have a starter. as far as like what you want to create. And then you get to add more creativity, you get to spend more energy there. So I definitely foresee myself and I think many others being able to kind of use the AI tools to kind of get started, get a baseline, maybe even kick around ideas. And then you can kind of tap in to your creativity from there.
Tricia:
Okay, like that.
Daniel:
So I’ve been using AI since it came out. You know, I totally geeked out on it. I’ve got GPT Pro, you know, not gonna lie. Totally like, okay, yeah, all right, 29 bucks a month. Hell yeah, let’s just see what I can do with this. And I’ve tested AutoGPT to see if it can basically run itself. And it does, it’s kind of neat to some degree. But you know, with with content creation and the fact that we can take somebody’s voice and use a tool to learn their voice and then recreate it. We can take a tool to take somebody’s face and then manipulate it. Where do we go from here as content creators like the OG content creators? What in your opinion? And I know here’s the crystal ball, Gresh. It’s all on you. You got to get this right, right? No pressure. But how do we protect our clients’ best interest? Yes, we can use ChatGPT, just like you’re saying to initiate a good article or tweak it or mold it. That’s all well and good, but that’s total short term. What’s the long term game that we need to get in on the mindset right now? start advising our clients for two years from now. What do you think?
Gresham:
Yeah, that’s an awesome question. I almost want to put that question in chat, GVT, to kind of see what answer it might give.
Gresham:
I think that’s the big part. It’s just like asking the question of how you can work in tandem with all this technology, two years down the line, 10 years down the line, not ignoring. And I think that even if we go far back, So many people said the internet was a fad or it wasn’t gonna be a thing that we weren’t gonna be using cell phones. So there’s always these technology, I guess, shifts that are happening. And as a leader, as a leader of an organization especially, I think the thing that you wanna be able to ask is, how can I really leverage the strengths of these tools? but at the same time not lose the creativity and opportunity to kind of create something new. And there’s this book called Range, which has been one of my favorite reads because a lot of what he talks about doing is that the opportunity is not in fighting a lot of the kind of specialization of technology or things, but really understanding how you can kind of collectively put together five, 10, 20 different things and create new solutions from that. So, I think if I’m talking with anybody, I’m saying I don’t necessarily know the exact answer, but I do know that you want to be able to look at all the things that are happening, look at the strengths of the technology of chat GPTs of the world and other technology tools, and not just say, hey, this is taking my content writing away, but instead ask a question of how can I leverage this so that I can use this ability to write a piece of content a lot quicker. and couple it with other aspects that are also changing simultaneously. And I think the gift and the curse is that it doesn’t provide you an exact answer. But that’s where the opportunity is in the same vein. So if you’re able to kind of be OK with not having the exact answer, but still wanting to be able to experiment and be in that spirit, I think that’s really where we’re going to be in two years and definitely farther beyond that, because. things are changing so rapidly and you’re not going to know the exact answer. And that’s not okay for everybody. Um, but I think for people that it might be okay with, and, you know, there’s a great opportunity from them.
Tricia:
I agree.
Daniel:
Sure.
Tricia:
Yes, that makes sense to me because it is new and it’s going to be interesting to see how it changes the creative world. I’ll be honest, when this, so the first time Daniel sent me a chat, GPT blog post he wrote, he kind of fooled me. At first I was thinking, yeah, yeah, he was all excited. At first I’m thinking, wow, this sounds really great, but I did notice. It did not have his snarkiness that I am used to hearing. And now I kind of know when he’s using it, when he’s not. And so from my perspective for content writing, just like you said, I think that it’s going to be a great resource to start with. But then there’s nothing that can really replace your voice, that creative voice, that uniqueness that makes you you in the way you speak and talk. And so I’m a designer and the same thing is happening with design. I mean, Adobe just came out with Firefly. Um, and the first impression I had of that is, wow, I think I wonder if this is going to, um, just kind of like fiber. People think fiber is a replacement for a good logo design, where designers know that it’s just a machine in the background generating a logo, that lots and lots of different people could come up with the same logo. Same concept, it’s going to be interesting to see how we can leverage AI technology to help us still be creative and create bigger and better things. You’re right, it’s not going away. It’s a technology that’s here to stay. And it’s going to be interesting to see how we can utilize that and still keep our creative, the creative spirit, if that makes sense. But I do think that it’s possible. I think we’re going to figure out how to do that.
Daniel:
My question then is with content. You know, right now our search engines work one way and tomorrow they’re gonna be very different. And people aren’t going to be going to Google and then following through to our websites. They’re gonna be getting all of the answers from the AI that scraped our website. I feel, and Gresh, I’m totally, Trisha, same for you. I want y’all’s opinions, but I feel like, I’m not gonna use the cliche SEO is dead, but the way that we’ve been playing the content game necessarily has to change. And I feel like, you know, the hesitation that you can hear in my voice. Yeah, that could probably be programmed in while I’m thinking, you know, that that could be faked, I’m sure. But platforms like TikTok, say, or YouTube, where there’s a pretty good chance, probably like a 90% chance. or even 80% chance that that’s a real human that’s speaking the content as opposed to an AI fabricated version of a real human that’s providing the content. I feel like this video format is going to take on an entirely new role in all that we’re doing for our clients. What do you think about that, Gresh? Totally disagree.
Gresham:
Yeah, well, you know, I had this conversation too, and when we were having the exact same AI kind of conversation around, you know, SEO kind of being dead. And I think you’re absolutely right where you hit the nail on the head, where I think the way that we look at SEO is going to be completely different. And I always go back and I try to remind myself. And I think even as we’re having in the chat, you see these AI conversations where it seems like the technology is taking over. I always try to remind myself that a lot of the data, the information, the technology is trying to replicate human activity. And any time we think about that, we don’t want to lose sight of it being the reason that SEO works the way that it does is because Google is trying to predict exactly what you’re going to search for. ChatGPT, the reason that they’re able to collate a lot of that information is because they looked at how we, as humans, are searching for certain things, and they find that information. I really say all that to say that I think SEO, of course, is going to be completely different. Some would argue it’s completely different every minute that we’re thinking of what we’re going to try to search for. But I think that the desire for people to search is not going to go away. What we’re optimizing is probably going to be different. And so I think SEO, as far as making sure your website, your title tag, meta description, all those aspects are in place, is going to be completely different. But people are searching on TikTok as you know. younger generations are more likely to search on TikTok, I think that there is going to be an SEO, you know, per se, you know, for optimizing things that from that standpoint. So I think the big thing is just like really paying attention as much as possible to like what we as humans desire, and especially things that we need, and then trying to work backwards from there and hopefully leverage the technology. Maybe I’m, you know, being too optimistic and the computers will take over, but That’s just how I try to remind myself is that, you know, I guess I just believe that the computers are going to be behind in some foreign trade profession if we do that deep work and understand that human part. But, you know, who knows? It might be completely different singing the Jetson song in, you know, a year or two.
Daniel:
I love what you said. And I don’t think I’ve heard it put to me that way. But all these tools are emulating humans. So you can’t take the human away, right? So I think we will not always, but we will continue to trump the AI that’s available. So we’ve talked about AI and content. Have you started using AI or have you been using AI in like paid ad strategy at all?
Gresham:
I haven’t, we don’t do as much paid ads as organic. However, I have been looking at different tools. So I definitely will be, that’s definitely the truth.
Daniel:
Yeah, I’m the same. We’re our focus has not been in the paid space for well over a year, really. And so I feel like that that territory is going to be totally different by the time we reenter. So you’ve got a lot of different. Well, it’s a media group, right? You’ve got a lot of different pieces in your very large puzzle. I’m curious about the strategy behind the diversification. Is it to have different revenue streams coming in, some of them more passive than others? And I see that you do a lot of work for… nonprofit, so kudos to you. We also do a lot of nonprofit work, so we appreciate seeing it in others as well. Can you kind of give us the top five pieces of your puzzle and from a digital marketing, digital agency perspective, what’s working best for you so that we could learn from you in that regard and others who might might have access to this at a later point can take some notes and get some tips tricks and ideas.
Gresham:
Yeah, I definitely appreciate that. And, you know, I’m definitely, like I mentioned, you know, before very much so a busy body, so I have so many different interests and things that, you know, I really try to focus on, I think when I started my business and this was 10 years ago, like I kind of fell into the digital marketing and really it was just like building websites. It was, you know, SEO at that time. And I think that’s what really ended up being like the foundation of the things that. you know, I was hoping to do. And as kind of time progressed, I really started to ask myself if I had unlimited, you know, revenue or in time to invest in something, like where would I do that? And that’s kind of where something I was already working on kind of came into play. So that’s where the interviews, I used to interviews, you know, and I still do CEOs, entrepreneurs and business owners to find out like why they started their business, advice that they had. And at that time, a lot of it was just around, hoping that I would learn about business because I didn’t really have that background. I didn’t really have that environment at that time to know like even what you should do or things that you should think about. So that’s where the CB Nation part came alive. And I really started to realize that, hey, I heard podcasting is a thing. I have all these recorded interviews that I was turning into a blog post. So let me start a podcast. And it just kind of organically happened from there. So… Those are definitely the two biggest parts to answer your question, the Blue 16 and then the CB Nation. And when I was asking that question of if I had the unlimited time, unlimited resources, where would I invest? A lot of it came to, I would probably just create a lot of information that would help to kind of serve the people that And what I started to realize is that I had planted some seeds. that was kind of doing that to some degree. So I knew that, you know, still the digital marketing was still my kind of, you know, bread and butter, what kept the lights on for lack of a better term. And that’s where I started to say, okay, well, if I could take this and maybe rebrand it into a resource that doesn’t, you know, steer people away. Like if you don’t want to work with us, don’t visit our site. I didn’t want that feeling there. But I wanted to be able to say that we’re helped supporting, you know, this program or this sites or these community of sites. And that’s just where everything kind of took out. So I would say after that it was really the podcast, I had a weekly podcast that I ended up deciding to launch a daily podcast called the I’m CEO podcast. And
Tricia:
Oh wow.
Gresham:
Yeah, so I hit 1600 episodes. And I said that if I could use this to maybe generate some opportunities. for my digital marketing, let me try to do that. So I really thought about, okay, this whole process that I’m going through on how to get guests, maybe I can offer them an SEO audit. So that’s where I started to add little things there that could hopefully feed the other, the most foundational side of the business. But now I’m at the point where I’m looking at other different streams, affiliate marketing, I’ve done sponsored content. Just different ways that I can continue to kind of drive different streams of revenue. But I think I always, you know, like I mentioned, very optimistic. I always say, you know, what can I do to kind of quote-unquote take over the world? And that’s like how I try to approach it. I usually bite off more than I can chew and try to find a way to nibble it on or try to readjust it and try to fit in as much as possible. So hopefully that answered your questions.
Tricia:
You sound like an entrepreneur. That’s what you sound like. I was just at a conference and one of the speakers said that she has seven different revenue streams. And just like you said, and she’s, they all, they kind of all point to the same mission, her core of what she does. And sometimes one of the revenue streams is doing really well and sometimes some of the others take a back seat. But it’s really great to have as an entrepreneur to have that many different revenue streams. So if they are, if one is doing better than the other, you’ve got something that can kind of compensate there, right? What would you say when people ask you about how to get started with a business? We get asked this question a lot. What is your one piece of advice that you give people? What do you tell them?
Gresham:
Yeah, you know, it’s funny. Like I think my piece of advice probably would be the same now that it was, you know, when I started was just to kind of get started. I think what I’ve learned more than anything else is that getting started doesn’t have to be quitting your job and putting it all on read. You know, you don’t have to do all of those things. I think getting started can be just, you know, starting to research. It could be testing out a different idea. I think one of the books that I read actually when I started, the blogs was the Lean Startup by Eric Riles, if I said that correctly. And he has this whole concept of the MVP, which is the minimum viable product. So the whole entire concept of it is that you don’t start by completing everything and then launching it out. You actually get something that’s very, very minimal.
Gresham Harkless:
That is not anything close to what the final product would be. And then you test it out and then kind of go from there. So that’s what I would probably say.
Tricia:
That is great advice.
Daniel:
Yep.
Tricia:
I agree. I am that’s what I always tell people is just start. So many people are afraid of failure right out of the gate. If they don’t have their plans solidified, they feel like they can’t go ahead and start that idea. I agree with you that if you just get started, and you start experimenting and tweaking and again, have different revenue streams. Try different things and see which ones are fruitful, which ones work for you. That you just gotta start, right? And then you’ll start tweaking as you go and eventually you will get there.
Daniel:
I think one of the cool things about our space is that overhead is minimal. We’re not renting a space, renovating it for a restaurant, buying all of the kitchen gear and hiring employees before we even make a single dollar.
Daniel:
We needed Wi-Fi. a laptop that you can probably get for a couple hundred bucks down at the pawn shop and a little bit of chutzpah, you know, a little bit of just get up and go, let’s just do this, right? And then you can learn on the way. So I think you’re right. In most cases, start a side hustle, right? Just keep your main gig. I think of this, I’ve got kids, I don’t You know, I think of this as my boys are growing up and maybe they wanna start thinking about dating. My eldest is only 13, so I’m not there yet. But you know, when they wanna start thinking about dating, finding that first partner is a struggle. But when you’ve got a relationship and you’re in a relationship, it’s so much easier to get in another one if you’re not happy with this one. And that’s why I think, you know, if you’ve got a job, if you’ve got income, it’s gonna be a whole lot easier to get a better job, more income, start a business while you’re still maintaining this one, right? And unfortunately, emotions, they don’t really have a right to feel like we cheated on them if we start a side hustle and then eventually pivot. It’s like, it’s not quite the same.
Daniel:
But wait until you ride that train until you’ve got the other one available. But I think you’re right. Starting out is the hardest thing. It’s the scariest thing, but it’s also the easiest thing. Just freaking do it.
Daniel:
You don’t need to quit your full-time gig. And you shouldn’t, just like you said, you shouldn’t.
Tricia:
And there’s such a need for digital marketing. I mean, every company, every company needs digital marketing.
Daniel:
I don’t know if you know our background. We teach digital marketing for University of Texas. And so many people come in and, you know, I think when I first started, I was a little worried, oh man, I’m training my competition. No, no, actually I’m not.
Daniel:
I’m just providing a better opportunity for better. digital marketers to come in and we as a collective can improve how things are done for the people that we can help. Right. But I, I just, I feel stupid lucky. I don’t know about you, Gresh or you, Tricia, but I feel stupid lucky that I like this and I’m relatively speaking pretty good at it. Right. And so it’s kind of like playing for me. People pay me to do this. And I mean, my My office is a three minute walk from my house. It’s like, I see those guys, typically men, you know, working in Texas. I don’t know where you’re located, but they’re working in Texas in August, roofing a house. And I’m like, I could never, I would not make it for 20 minutes. I would be done. You know, so I just, I’m so grateful to be in this space and in this industry. And it’s interesting because it keeps changing. Like you were saying, AI is just, it’s here now. So it is what it is. And there’s, it’s kind of intimidating. That’s a question for you, Gresh, is are you intimidated? Because I feel intimidated. Like when I think about my, you know, with being a business owner, we have ebbs and flows and what have you, but it’s still relatively consistent. But thinking about all of the change. Um, what is our longevity look like? Like in five years? Am I, cause I’m 46, almost 47, I’m going to be aging out pretty soon. I can’t keep up with the learning that’s involved. Are you intimidated? Like I am with like being able to stay in the game for the next five or 10 or 15 years.
Gresham:
Yeah, I love that question. And no, I don’t think that I’m intimidated if you’re open to change it. And I don’t think you’re intimidated either, especially if you’re leading the future. I feel like you are very, very smart because that’s why I love everything that you all are doing because you’re getting the opportunity to kind of sharpen this all, for lack of a better term, and be able to kind of… hear what ideas and hear what things are coming out, hear how the students are looking at different things. And I think that’s really where the opportunity is, is to be able to say, if we kind of hold on to the thing. And actually, so there was this business coach that came to a networking meeting and he gave me an analogy that I always think about, anytime I’m like stuck and not wanting to move forward or kind of take on change. He said, if you really look at a lot of things that you’re doing, like you’re the kid on the jungle gym, you have to realize that in order for you to go to the next rung, you have to let go of the past rung. And I say all that to say, like, in order for me not to be intimidated, I have to understand that I have to let go of some of the things, how business was, how I generated revenue before, how, and what that looks like. But if I’m in the kind of, I guess, spirit of saying, okay, I just want to be able to help people with marketing. I don’t think that’s ever going to go away because there’s always people that need to get their information out there. They need to promote what it is that they’re doing. They always wanna generate more sales or more whatever that looks like. I think the tools are gonna change. So I tell myself to not get as caught up with the… the how as much as the why. So why do I want to do this? If we have a spirit of saying, okay, I want to help, you know, businesses to be able to promote themselves, get their name out there, talk about all the awesome things that they’re doing, then we might decide that we’re going to pick up this new tool versus another tool or focus more on that. But we’re still kind of supporting our why. So it’s something that is hard because, you know, people don’t necessarily like change. I think everybody to some degree likes what they are comfortable with. But getting out in that comfort zone is really where the opportunity lies. And I have to coach myself up and kind of be reminded of it as much as everybody else. So yeah, I think you’re always unsure, but I wouldn’t say intimidated.
Tricia:
I think that there is, because there is so much digital marketing world, work to be had, I think that each of us brings our own thing to the table. Like you probably have, I’m guessing, Gresham, a client that’s kind of ideal for you at this point. I know that we do, right? And this is something we have learned along the way. And that’s not gonna change. And it really doesn’t matter. I mean, I know Daniel’s talking about, are we gonna be doing this when we’re 60? I think we will be doing this when we’re 60. And I think that there’s gonna be a target audience for that. Right now we have a client who, their target audience are college aged kids. And we have another client who she’s older. She’s in her seventies and she’s still rocking it, but her… client audience or people kind of like more C level execs, you know, with a lot of experience, there’s just there’s a lot of different clients, there’s a lot of different needs out there. And there’s a lot of different people to fill those needs. My son has actually decided he’s going to be a digital marketer. He’s taking the boot camp that Daniel and I teach, he’s not taking them while we teach because we thought that would be kind of weird, you know, having your mom teach you. So he’s taking it from another instructor, but I’ve been watching what he’s been doing. And I don’t know. say I feel like I’ve got things to teach him. He’s got some good perspective, he’s a college-age kid and he’s into the newest tech and everything but there’s still things that he can learn. He can still learn from me. So yeah, I’m not worried about that. I feel like, just like you said, going, you know, learning about the new trends and the new, you know, the new things available to us, we will still have clients for a long, you know, and we can still cater to them using the skills that naturally come to us, that we have to, I’m not saying this right, but you know what I’m saying, we all have our own talents that we can bring to the table. That’s what I’m trying to say, talents.
Gresham:
Yeah, well, no, it’s what both of you said really kind of resonated with me, because I think that, you know, when you, I guess when you get started, especially if you get started when you’re younger, I was 25 when I started my business. So you have a certain amount of naivete, maybe that’s the best way to say it, and ego and thinking that you can do it better and you don’t realize there’s so many other parts of the business. But there’s, to me, there’s no kind of… way to replace that experience. And I think that when you know who your target client is, sometimes that’s because you didn’t have the right client a couple of times, and you’re like, I don’t wanna replicate that, so I know exactly who I wanna work with, and it goes from there. And I didn’t realize that when I started, and I’m still learning that as I go now. So yeah, what tool I wanna use or focus on and things like that, but I think it just happens over time. So yeah, I think there’s always gonna be the need for that experience, so yeah.
Tricia:
Yeah. Who is your ideal client?
Gresham:
Yeah. Yeah, funny enough, so we focus primarily on website design, support, SEO services. We do some ads, but not a lot of just ads, like Google Ads. But we really try to focus on people that I say that know enough to be dangerous. And it’s usually those organizations that have had a less than ideal experience with their digital marketers in the past. And they end up being sometimes the most difficult people to get a hold of because just like, I’m gonna go back to the data analogy, not the seven streams of dating or the seven streams of revenue as we were talking about earlier, but a lot of times when you have been burned, you don’t wanna date again. So when you have worked with a digital market, it hasn’t gone well, you often don’t wanna, you know, work with anybody again, and you wanna completely shut the door on digital marketing, but. I think that’s where a lot of referrals, especially in building relationships has been really strong for me because sometimes you’re kind of like the, we’re either gonna get married today or I’m not dating ever again. And it ends up being that type of relationship. And sometimes those are more difficult people because you have to over communicate, you have to over explain. But I feel it really have found like that’s been, our bread and butter, and having a team, having a marketing person on the team, which usually means that. There at least is a desire to invest in marketing. There is a person that kind of understands what it is that we do, but it’s not necessarily like a one person, a one man band. But yeah, that’s a little bit about like who we try to target. I didn’t niche down and I’ve always kind of going back and forth about different industries, but we really try to use that profile or that avatar of like, this is probably our best clients that.
Daniel:
I know that there’s a solid argument for niching down, but I just can’t, it doesn’t resonate with me. I’m like, I feel like I’d be cooking the same, the same meal every night, eating the same sauce. I’m like, I don’t think I could do that. It might, might provide a better opportunity to scale. But at the end of the day, while I do want to scale. you know, it would be nice to have a bit more revenue coming in. Sure, I don’t want to do that. That’s not the way that I want to go about it. So it’s kind of nice to hear that you’re not niching down yourself because it’s like, all right, I’m not alone.
Tricia:
Well, so hold on, you’re not niching down, but you have an ideal client. And that was going to be my question is, do you turn away work if you don’t feel like it’s the right client for you or that you can provide what they need? Do you do that?
Gresham:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s funny because the way digital marketing has exploded, not just in terms of people that are interested, but the different lanes within digital marketing, it’s insane.
Gresham:
Just thinking about what it was and what it is now. So you end up finding that sometimes clients aren’t the right fit. But I think it wasn’t something that I could really even think about doing when I first started. Now, having more clients, having more recurring clients and revenue and things like that, allows you to be a little bit more pickier, I guess, about like who you wanna work with. But yeah, I think that, yeah, if you’re able to kind of lean into that and lean into that, you know, one of the lessons that was really hard, but it’s come true, you know, in the future, is that those clients that you decide that I just… look at the dollar signs and that this might be an opportunity to generate more revenue. And I bring them on and I get those red flags as they talk about a lot in dating.
Gresham:
Those come true and you realize that I made a huge mistake and you might have lost an opportunity for other clients or it takes you away. Your energy is low, just all those things. And it’s hard to love what it is that you’re doing if you’re working with clients that you don’t really love working with. So yes, to answer your question as long as way possible, yes, I’ve learned to start doing that. It’s always a struggle, because you’re always thinking like, oh, if I could get that one more client than X, Y, and Z, but you have to do it because you wanna also love what it is that you’re doing too.
Tricia:
Absolutely. I love this dating analogy we keep using.
Tricia:
This is awesome. I agree. So Daniel, we’ve we’ve niched down a little bit. We have if you think about it. And we just the other day we had a call with a potential client and we knew we’re like, we’re your people. You are we are your ideal. You are our ideal client. that’s true to some degree, but maybe we’re niching down to personality.
Daniel:
You know, when we when we have this face to face, I don’t know. But, you know, I’m I don’t know. I get what you’re saying, Trisha. But we are not like just doing dental work, right? That we’re working for an agency and just and that’s full on niching. Right. We’re, we’re staying in a lane. I don’t know about you. It’s gracious. It is nice to hear that you’re, you’re kind of staying in your lane. Whereas we teach digital marketing all the time and I’ve done a lot of digital marketing. I don’t enjoy all of the different lanes. Right. I love web development. That’s my, that’s my happiest place. SEO may be my second happiest place. Um, the social media marketing. I can totally do it. I know all of the theory. I know all of the strategies and tactics, but I don’t enjoy doing that. So I don’t want to provide that service. I want to be able to provide that service if a client wants to pay us for that service, but I also don’t want to have to be the provider. So from, you’re saying we a lot, do you have a pretty big team or is we like what I- still do a lot. I say we and I really mean I. Like how does that how does that work for you?
Gresham:
Yeah, so I’m the only employee, but I have a team of contractors. And I’ve wanted to kind of stay lean from that standpoint. So I say we a lot. But funny enough, I think I did have people on the team kind of like when I started. But I said we because I wanted to to let people know that it’s not just me that’s helping out. And I think that helps out, too, when you’re trying to work on other things. And, you know, they’re not always using your email to try to get everything done. So things like that has been super helpful.
Daniel:
Yeah, I found, I found when I started, Trisha, I found when I started, I started and got an LLC, started calling my company and agency, I wasn’t a freelancer. I said we, because psychologically I feel like that, that made the, the other person on the side, you know, the other side of the phone or what have you feel more comfortable and confident. Um, But I, so I still say we all the time and I really mean I, but it feels safer that way. And I feel like that, you know, that’s a little nugget that someone starting out in this industry, I think they need to do like what you’re saying you do and we do, which is reference ourselves as we and call yourself an agency. Because freelancer, you charge half and the expectations on you are ironically even higher because they think that you’re the only one working on this project and their project is the only project that you have. Right. They, and they abuse that. So I feel like having a little bit of distance, um, creating that separation of space, referencing we just in case you’re your buddy. John or Hilda wants to do something or needs to do something for you. You’re not lying, you always said we.
Tricia:
And you know, if you have contractors working with you, you are a we, it’s a team endeavor. And we we definitely know what our strengths are. And if we if there’s something that’s not our strength, we will bring a contractor in to help us. And that’s what we do. Right. I was I was just gonna say going back to the the clients and make it what you said Gresham about it’s not always about the dollar amount. It’s about partnering with the right clients and how important that is because we do need to be loving what we do because it means that we’re gonna do a better job for that person, for that company, right? We have turned down clients before that we don’t feel like we’ve meshed with, you know?
Tricia:
Yeah, but the thing is, is you kind of have to get to the point where you can do that, where you can be picky about the clients that you’re taking on. And that just takes a lot of hard work and experience. And I mean, that’s kind of the goal. The ultimate goal is to be at the point where you can say no to a project if it doesn’t feel right for you. And that’s really great that you are at that point. We’re at that point, too. And that’s ideal. That’s what we want for our careers.
Daniel:
Gresh, do you, I see in your bio on your website, progression.com, that you were recognized for the 40 under 40.
Tricia:
Oh wow, congratulations.
Daniel:
in Northern Virginia. Did you see a bump in traffic as a result of that? Like that accolade, did you get any more business or? Was it just nice to put that on the wall in the back and, you know, look at it when you walk by in the hall?
Gresham:
Yeah, I think it was definitely probably more the latter than anything. I feel like a lot of because there are so many digital marketers, especially. I think a lot of it provides some type of, and I think that’s all what kind of PR does is it provides a level of legitimacy of the things that you’re doing. For me personally, when I started my business, I was not, there were not a lot of people cheering me on and saying, you know, go for it, you know, reach for your dream, do all those things. So I think. that, of course, you know, get an opportunity. I did maybe get one opportunity or two that came about or had a call or something like that, but nothing major. But I think that it was a reminder that I’m not just dilly-dallying on my computer and I actually am, you know, trying to build and grow something and getting recognition from, you know, I think obviously doing the work that you do, but sometimes doing other work outside of the community. Um, is something that I appreciated a lot because I think, you know, like we’ve been talking about a lot, you know, just the different aspects of being human and what that means. Um, when you are having the opportunity to give your time or resources or whatever that might be, um, and then you get that opportunity to be recognized and it, it really, it feels good not so much to post it, which is cool to look at, you know, when you have it up, but at the same time, it just kind of hopefully provides a little validation of that. Hey, I wasn’t that crazy.
Daniel:
Yeah, it’s the credibility and legitimacy to who you are and what you’re doing. And yeah, I respect that a lot. And I feel you as well, because I remember I went to a HubSpot conference, I don’t know, half a decade ago, a decade ago, I’m terrible with time. And one of the funniest, weirdest, craziest things they put on the board, was they did a poll to find out like, trust, who do people trust more? And they just broke it down by industry, right? So, and I don’t remember the statistics, but lawyers were at the bottom, at the very bottom. Politicians were very close to lawyers and marketers were right there with them, right?
Gresham:
Oh wow.
Daniel:
We were way at the bottom in space of trust. And so not a lot of people, when they find out what I do, well, one, even understand what does that mean? And I’m like, I don’t know how to tell you what we do. We do a lot of different things. But not a lot of people are like clapping and celebrating. They’re just like, yeah, okay, good. Do your thing. So I’m sorry to hear that you didn’t have a lot of people. clapping you and pushing you and helping you rise into what you have achieved. But isn’t it nice that you got there all the same and doesn’t it feel even more special knowing that you didn’t have that leg up and you still managed to get where you’re at. So even more kudos, I think, are applied in your direction.
Gresham:
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Tricia:
I love it when people tell me I can’t do something because then I go and do it. I don’t know if that’s how you feel about it, but every time I’ve had that happen in the workplace, I used to work in corporate jobs a lot. And yeah, it’s a challenge. Go ahead, tell me I can’t do it. I’m going to make it happen.
Daniel:
Well, and you know, we’ve taught a lot of people in our system. And I can think of two truck drivers and one security guard. And I think when you met them the very first time, it would have been hard to imagine them becoming digital marketers. And yet they’re all professionals now. You know, it’s been a couple of years that they’ve been through the class and we see where they’re at. And… It’s, nobody should be able to tell you, you can’t do it and you believe them.
Tricia:
You have to keep going, and you’re doing awesome work. And we as entrepreneurs and digital marketers ourselves know how much work it is that you’ve put into building your business.
Daniel:
I’m curious though, you mentioned that, you know, you did all of these interviews and you have all of these podcasts. Are you doing anything with the transcripts? Are you repurposing the transcripts in? in your content and books or white papers or anything like that, what are you doing with all of that content? Cause that’s got to be enormous.
Gresham:
Yes, it is. And if you if you don’t believe it, I don’t believe it either Sometimes you just look at the numbers they’re going up and it doesn’t even seem like that But I think it just speaks to like just my curiosity that journalistic you like trying to learn as much as possible But that’s really where I’m at now Is trying to so what I did was I did about 1,600 episodes the beginning of this year and then my goal was to really create space and repurpose some of the top episodes. So like right now I’m repurposing episodes around different like business topics. So I came and I went through a lot of the podcasts and I came up with like 16 business, I call them pillars or categories, just different things that you should know around business. So right now, literally repurposing episodes around each of those different topics. And what I’m hoping to do is exactly what you said. So all the… episodes that have been published haven’t been transcribed. So getting back on actually transcribing those episodes, uploading them on the different posts, but also to be able to think about what might be some other next steps, which might be courses or even just small meetups with people that have been on the show that I feel like might be good to connect. There’s no shortage of ideas that I have. I’m really good at probably creating ideas. Not as great as like saying this is going to be my lane. I’m just going to focus on this as we kind of talked about. But I think that’s really where I’m trying to kind of, I guess, solidify what’s going to be that next step in the things that I hope to create.
Tricia:
Cool. It’s kind of a popular thing to start a podcast right now. But everybody’s got a podcast, but really, it’s such a great way to generate content.
Daniel:
Let’s take this full circle. There are AI tools that can transcribe your podcasts. They might cost a dollar or two to use them for however much, how many hundreds of hours of content you must have to troll through. But then once you’ve got those transcripts, you can feed them into yet another AI tool and tell it, okay, I want… I want to cluster these. What are the clusters, the pillars that you mentioned? And then let’s break them into even finer segments and let’s really segment them out into chapters. So, I mean, with probably a small investment and probably not too small amount of invested time, you would have, man, I’ll be buying those books from you. You would have some incredible. material to then add to newsletters. Do you have a newsletter? Are you using that strategy to ship out and sell them for three bucks a pop man? I bet that’s yet another revenue stream that brings you several hundies every month just because you put it all together. So I mean, it’s amazing what you’ve got. I am really impressed is probably not the right word. I’m really amazed at what you’ve been able to achieve. Um, and maybe impressed is the right word. I, it’s more like I want to be like you, Gresh. I know that might seem silly. That might seem silly, but I, I aspire to, um, have what you’ve got. So I’m, I’m jealous. That’s the word. I’m jealous. And I don’t mean that in a bad way. Uh, I applaud you, but I think that what you’ve got is fantastic and I’ll want to be able to do what you’re doing.
Gresham:
I appreciate that. I think you all are doing awesome things. That’s why I love, you know, getting the opportunity to kind of be on this show. And, you know, I think one of the things that I’ve found that’s been super exciting for me is that everybody, my goal was always to highlight people doing awesome work.
Gresham:
I love stories. I love people doing awesome things. And when I did all the podcasts and everything, It was never, I wanted to, you know, have everybody highlighted as much as possible. And that’s where the optimism comes in, is I said that I want to interview as many entrepreneurs and business owners as I could. And I try to create a system to make that happen. So, you know, I appreciate that tremendously. I think what I haven’t even realized that I love all those ideas and those, that advice, because I could definitely, you know, implement that and didn’t even think about doing that. So I appreciate that tremendously. So, Yeah, that’s just kind of like what got me going. It’s just like, how can I highlight people?
Tricia:
Yeah, it’s pretty cool.
Daniel:
Gresh, I think we should probably start wrapping this up real quick, but before we do, I want to ask you for one piece of advice for other digital marketers looking to enter or grow in this space. What, if anything, is your one piece of advice?
Gresham:
I think the biggest piece of advice is probably along the lines of what we’ve kind of already talked about is really to just experiment and try out different things. I think one of my big advantages in the beginning was testing out so many different ideas. And this was within digital marketing, but there’s so many other businesses, hustles, whatever you want to call them that I started to try to figure out what I like to do, what kind of made my heart sing, I guess you can say. And I think if you kind of embrace that and do that at a very low investment or a low cost, there’s so many ways that you can kind of learn more about yourself, which I think is really like when you start a business, you of course get to build a business, really awesome things and connections come out of it. But I think what we sometimes forget about is I always say the human part of business that we’ve been talking about, and that human part is also like how you get to develop yourself. So even if you say that I started this, I invested in, you know, SEO and I did all this time and you think that that time is completely lost, it’s probably not because you probably have developed some skills that you didn’t consider. So don’t be afraid to try things because even though it won’t end up where you want it to be, you probably will develop in some form, trade, or fashion, or at least know what you don’t want to do.
Tricia:
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel:
I love that.
Tricia:
Great advice.
Daniel:
I think that it’s the path, right? It’s the journey.
Daniel:
: I studied anthropology and philosophy in university. What the hell did that do for me? But it did get me thinking about human behavior, right? And that’s what we do in digital marketing is we pull on all of that information. So even though it didn’t. go directly to where I thought I wanted to be. It was instrumental in getting me where I am today. So that’s wonderful advice. Thank you, Gresh. Gresh, it’s been wonderful having you on this show. Thank you so much for joining us and bringing all of your enthusiasm and expertise and really incredible ideas to this show. And to me personally, I just wanna say thank you. Really appreciate you.
Tricia:
Yes, thank you so much. It was so great speaking with you and we will be following you and we can’t wait to see what you do next.
Gresham:
Thank you, I appreciate it.