In this podcast episode. Pamela Hults, an account manager with WSI Digital Marketing Services and a former photojournalist, shares her journey of transitioning from photography to digital marketing. She explains how the pandemic shutdown forced her to reevaluate her career and seek a plan B. Pam then narrates her experience attending a digital marketing boot camp at the University of Texas, where she met Daniel and Tricia. She describes the initial doubts she had about her abilities but shares how the supportive environment and effective teaching style of the boot camp helped her gain confidence.
Pam goes on to discuss the importance of trusting one’s instincts and breaking free from self-imposed limitations, such as age-related concerns when pursuing a new career path. Tricia acknowledges the impact that the pandemic had on prompting individuals to reevaluate their lives and careers. The conversation emphasizes the transformative power of the boot camp experience and how it not only provided Pam with new knowledge and skills but also changed her perspective on her career.
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Daniel:
Welcome back to We Rock DM Amplified, the podcast that amplifies your understanding of the digital and web universe. We your hosts, Daniel Bissett and Tricia Ulberg are thrilled to introduce our special guest today, Pam Holtz. As an account manager with WSI Digital Marketing Services, Pam brings a wealth of knowledge and hands-on experience from the front lines of digital marketing. Stay tuned for an enlightening conversation that promises to elevate your marketing game. Pam, welcome to the show. So thankful that you chose to join us today.
Pam:
Thank you. Thank you. I’m excited to be here.
Tricia:
Pam, I’m so excited. So I have to do my little intro now. Daniel and I both met Pam for the first time in our digital marketing bootcamp at the University of Texas where we both teach. And Pam was always a standout student to us right from the very beginning. And the other thing that I really loved about Pam is she has, well, you have, you have a background, a creative background. and photography. And so we’ve always had a lot to talk about as far as digital marketing and how the creativity aspect plays into that. And that is one of the things that I would love to start talking to you about first, because I know that there’s a lot of creatives out there who are wondering how they can pivot their career into a digital marketing. you know, the digital marketing realm. So, Pam, why don’t you go ahead and talk about your background and just that transition, the camp and everything. Let’s talk.
Pam:
Well, so I graduated from UT as a photojournalist, and I worked as a photographer, I’ve worked as a photographer for most of my career, and then pandemic hit. And being shut down quite casually, as an industry with kind of a kind of an eye opening thing about what am I doing? And how am I going to live the last basically third of my life because I’m 61, right? And At the time I was 58 and I just, it’s almost the equivalent of having like a Katrina, her King, Katrina per se kind of thing go, my life has been shaken just like everybody else, right? Like it wasn’t, but it’s like how did we deal with that? And so I thought, well, I can’t, you know, just spend my time on the couch trying to figure out what bottle of wine I’m going to open. So let me figure out what plan B is, right? And The digital marketing boot camp came up, you know, somehow, someway, you know, miraculously, you know, marketing found me. And I reached out to a friend of mine and I said, what do you think? Because it, you know, the tuition is significant, especially when you’re shut down. And she had gotten her masters at UT and she said, you know what, let me reach out to some of my friends and see if they’ve heard anything about this, you know, boot camp. And she came back maybe 30 minutes later and she said, you know what, I think I’ll sign up. You know, like just great, you know, feedback on it. And it was the scene that I needed to hear at the right place at the right time because I genuinely was lost because I knew. So in especially event photography, you’re booked out months in advance. So it’s kind of almost like the food chain, right? Like when you’re growing grapes for wine or when you’re, you know, growing flowers for bouquet. you’re not doing it that week of that month of you’re doing it six to nine months ahead of time right so to be shut down even if they open this back up again i still would have this lag time you know of getting back to any kind of rhythm than i had so um i was all right i’m going to take this class and i’m going to approach it like work uh because i’m not doing anything else and uh the first night of boot camp and there’s what 60 of us You know, it was a huge group of us. And I just thought, it felt so right. I loved Daniel’s teaching style. I loved how easy he was to understand, relate to, because, you know, I haven’t been in a class basically since college, and I graduated in 86, right? And I wasn’t even sure I could do it. I literally came in just going, just help me, help me, you know, kind of thing. So after the first night, I was just jazzed, I have found what I’m supposed to do during this downtime. And literally approached it like I said, like a job. I attended all the classes. I missed maybe half of one because I wasn’t feeling well. But homework was easily 20 hours a week for me. It wasn’t something I wanted to actually know it and learn it, you know? And then the fact that I ended the class with a job that I loved two years later, I still love it, it’s the same class. I work with Jen, who is a student with you guys, and she and I work closely together to this day. We’ve seen each other in person a couple of times. We’ve traveled together when we went to convention, and it was just one of those things where if you listen to your gut, if I’ve learned anything, and it feels right, it’s like it kind of takes the fear away. It takes that ability to go, you know what? This is what I should be doing, and I’m going to just embrace it.
Tricia:
I completely know what you mean by that gut feeling. I have that same gut feeling that I should be looking into digital marketing as a graphic designer. And it was during the pandemic that I finally made that leap. I applied to be a TA at the bootcamp, right? And I think the pandemic did that a lot for a lot of us. It kind of made everybody really look at your life and your careers and whatever it is you have going on and kind of ask yourself, is this what I’m supposed to be doing? Or should I be pivoting? Or should I be trying something else?
Pam:
Right?
Tricia:
Yeah, I think that happened to a lot of people. Pam, and we always knew that you were, you were for, we knew that you were going to succeed. I remember you doubting yourself a little bit there once in a while and we kept saying, Pam, you’re awesome! Keep going, keep going.
Pam:
Well, thank you. Thank you. No, it truly was one of those things where I went from going, I don’t know my name, to I think I have an idea and a plan. Right. But I started from the ground. I was not coming in going, all right, I know what I’m doing. But yeah, no, I think I’ve told you this, the things you tell yourself, you know, like, well, I can’t do this, or I’m too old, or you know what, it’s just, you know. hard. The boot camp busted all of those beliefs I had told myself. And it’s almost like a life lesson for me. It’s like if I start to hear things in my head that, you know, there’s no foundation other than it’s coming from my head, I truly reach out to others in my circle and I’ll go, what do you think of this? And they’ll go, Pam, you’re in your head, you know, kind of thing. Like where it’s before, I would have never done that. I would have thought, you know, especially running my own business, I thought I knew everything. I knew how to do everything. I had the right answer, sure I made a few mistakes, but this was not just a new career for me, it’s a new approach to life.
Tricia:
Yeah. And Pam, one of the things that you have talked to me quite a bit about is that fear you had that you were, you were, I don’t like using the word too old. I don’t like that phrase. What is it that you were? You were not as young as some of the other people in the class, right? And that was a negative thought in your head that you completely changed. And why? Why is that?
Pam:
Well, I’m going to try not to cry when I say this, but when WSI reached out and said, hey, we have an opening, who would you recommend, you know, that we talk to? And you, you know, like I’m looking at the TAs who are in their 20s and, you know, you guys are, you know, younger and stuff, I would have easily, easily thought you would have picked somebody, you know, like, so I can name a few of our students who are, you know, just younger, And the fact that you picked me, right, like that is one of those things where I was just like, I can’t, I mean, I’ll always be a person that works, right. And I think up until then, I always thought I would have to work for myself. The fact that I got picked and then I’m, you know, an employee and you and I talked about that, I didn’t even know if I could be an employee, right. And I have found the perfect group that works with me. They know, they know me. I, on some level, Jeremy, who is our agency owner that I work for, celebrates me. Because he’s like, I love your entrepreneurial approach to how you do work. Because I don’t know how to be an employee, honestly. I don’t know how to just shut it down at five o’clock. I’m always thinking about our clients. I’m always thinking about how we can do better. If something’s off, I lose sleep, you know, and I genuinely, that’s how I approach my other, you know, business. So. It’s great that I’m with a group of people that aren’t tied to just doing bare necessities and getting out, you know, so I’m grateful for that.
Tricia:
Yeah, I do think that this is a common fear that the digital marketing industry is geared towards young people. And I, and you’re, I think you would agree with me, that’s not true. There’s, there’s so many different aspects of digital marketing. Digital marketing touches every business, it touches every industry. And sometimes it does make sense to have a younger person. And sometimes you need experience. And we all have something that we can bring to the table. And I’m like you, I’m not going to ever stop working. Ever.
Pam:
I know, I don’t play golf. Yes. I don’t really cook. I don’t knit, for sure. Yeah, I would much rather work. And do things that I’m interested in. And there’s so much out there.
Pam:
And to your point about bringing experience to the table, especially during this time with AI, where there’s so much changing. I was there during a time when I was a film photographer. And then when digital started to hit the scene, I was actually an early adopter because I worked with a team of photographers who were like, we have to move to digital because it’s way quicker. And so I bought my first camera. I spent $5,000 on a four meg camera. And after spending that, I could only afford two 256 card flashcards that you used to shoot. Those were $400 each. Didn’t even have a website. Didn’t even know what email was. But just going in and going, I know this is the future and I need to embrace it. It launched my career as a photographer from being, you know, like casually hired to being one of the top photographers to winning best of awards, to turning down business, being a top referrer because one with digital, the learning curve shortened. Like, so if I’m shooting something, I could tell if the light was working or if it wasn’t working, I could, you know, if it was working. And a lot of times it was something I wouldn’t have done with film because I needed the film to come out, right? I couldn’t go, I’m sorry we didn’t get it because I was playing or experimenting. Experiment, being able to experiment exploded my creativity, right? And so the people that were hesitant that were like, you know, I don’t know if digital lasts, what about archiving? What about being able to blow up print? But, you know, like albums, will they just, you know, pretty much disappear in 10 years? And I was like, I don’t think so. I think this is the wave of the future. And it is the thing like when AI, it feels like a second revolution to me of change that will change us all, right?
Pam:
So I am an early adopter. And more than anything, it’s interesting because you learn how people are, who’s comfortable with change and who’s not, right? And so I’m not generally a patient person and I am learning patience, not just with my agency, but just with… people in my life where I go, you know what, have you looked into, you know, doing that better or just even ask chat and see if you see how do I get a faster open rate or a better open rate with newsletter. Just check. You know, it may be a great answer. It may be terrible, but if you’re not playing, you’ll be left behind. And I learned that with the photographers that not only embrace digital early, they turned it into businesses by writing like, you know, Photoshop tutorials. or writing action sets and selling them casually, teaching digital photography, right? At the time I had a young son who was four years old at the time, so I was just grateful to learn how to process Photoshop at the time and just kind of get through my business. But if I could do it again, I would have definitely been an early adopter who would have looked for opportunities to build businesses to sell or build scenes to sell. because most of those photographers that jump on that are not photographers anymore. They’re pretty much retired or doing whatever they wanna do, right?
Tricia:
Yeah. And this has been a hot topic, AI and how we’re going to have to adjust to this, and the fear surrounding that. And I think it’s especially in the creative realm, what that means. And so I’m wondering then, I know you’re you’ve been an early adopter of AI, and you’re already in there playing with it. How are you using that? Are you using that in your current position? Have you started to use it?
Pam:
Well, so in the photography world, mid-journey is what is pretty much rocking that world, especially in commercial and I think landscape photography, you know, or architectural, not landscape, but architectural photography. And it used to be like I was thinking, well, maybe photographers need to become input artists, you know, like input experts kind of thing. But then I saw somebody go, hey, AI, give me 10 prompts or da da, right? So It really is just kind of just rethinking who are you and how are you going to use this tool. It doesn’t, I choose to, you know, like that whole abundance train of thought is where I head to. You know, I know, like I heard somebody say that models are being put out of business because, you know, AI, especially in print or video, not necessarily runaway, but you can, you know, go in and specify what kind of model you want, all what she weighs, he weighs, whatever. And never would I have thought that would happen that quickly. So there are definitely industries that are being disrupted. So in our world as the agency, it’s pretty much where we have a meeting once a week and we have to talk about how we at least try the AI or opened up the program to examine it. And so we’re moving into it for sure. But it is baby stuff, because what we’re doing works right now. For example, you can’t use content from AI, from chat GPC, because Google doesn’t like it, and it recognizes it in our tools that we can use to detect. And if we can detect it, Google sure as heck can.
Daniel:
Now there’s controversy there. There’s controversy there. You know, a lot of people, that’s the story that a lot of people are spinning, but the evidence is contrary to that. A lot of SEO specialists that are moving into AI created content. Um, are they’re blowing it out of the water right now because, because whether that is a, whether Google can recognize it as AI and then decides to penalize it or not is still a question mark. Um, Google needs content and, uh, if content, however it’s spun up. is actually being consumed well. then people’s answers or questions are being answered. They’re not going back to Google to ask the same question, to find another source to provide a deeper, better understanding of whatever it is. Then that signal alone tells Google, hey, this content is good. And Google doesn’t actually have an agenda. They don’t give a damn who wrote it, human or otherwise. What they want to be able to do is provide a resource user who is the question asker, right? So this story that, oh yeah, AI, we’ve got zero GPT that can identify it. Yeah, yes, we do. And from an academic perspective, perhaps that’s problematic is AI created content. But from the current case studies that are out there, the metrics are incredible. So who’s spinning an agenda here?
Pam:
What you’re saying, Daniel. I know what you’re saying. But so there is an initial bump with Google when you, you know, anytime you add content to your website, right? But then there is a fallout. And I will send you the test that I saw. It’s Sterling Skye that runs tests constantly. And it was part of a conference that I attended. At the end of the day, the problem is with chat GPP is, my understanding is it’s as of, was it September 21? And on the Google, there’s good content, there’s great content, but there’s also bad content. And at the end of the day, Google wants the user to have the best content and the most updated content. So once it realizes that you’re regurgitating content that’s already been out there, You do get dinked.
Daniel:
Yeah, but if you’re not using the pro version of ChatGPT, then you’re restricted to 2021. But that restriction was lifted about six weeks ago when they integrated. plugins and about three weeks ago when it integrated directly with Bing. Um, so like I just this morning said, go crawl this transcript from earlier podcast. Well, the first thing I said was you’re a professional digital marketer. Um, and. you have a knack for creating viral content. So that was it. I set its base stage. And then I said, go crawl this transcript and give me topic clusters. Give me keywords. Give me SEO strategies. Give me social breakdown for organic posts that have a proclivity to go viral. from last week’s podcast and it’s spit out a ton of ideas that I will then dive into and break apart. But I mean, as long as it’s out there, chat GPT and that’s not the only LLMAI model that’s available, but that’s the big player, there’s Claude, there’s Bard. They’re connected and they’re… powerful. And I mean, I feel like the limitations that we presuppose.
Pam:
Right. Well, so what you gave chatGPC though was new content. Right? Am I understanding that right? Well, so the idea is if everybody could just regurgitate old content, right? So how to rank is to add new content to your website. Well, we could be doing that all day long, 24 hours a day, right? So then how is Google going to start to rank if everybody’s just dumping out old content? And that’s not what Google wants. Google wants new, fresh content that is updated. And so how you use AI with downloading your transcript is perfect. You’re giving it new content for it to break down and tell you, OK, here are some more topics that you can explore. That’s the perfect way to use AI right now.
Daniel:
Accept that hen, after it’s broken it into topic clusters, I’m going to say, take a quote from the transcript and write a blog around this quote for this topic. Right? I’m not going to write it. I might go in and tweak it. I might give it a tone. I might give it a heat index. I might give it some direction on creativity. And then I’ll go in and I will clean it up as far as editing goes. But I’m not going to write it. AI is going to write it. And if I didn’t go in and clean it up, I could publish it. It wouldn’t be brand new stuff. It would be one brand new quote based the conversation, but the theory, the concept, is based on all of the large language model material that has come up to date, right? So it’s still, in theory, regurgitating concepts. It’s just putting it together in a new, in theory, hopefully a little bit fresher way. I mean, it’s inspired perhaps by new content, but it’s not. in and of itself in content, and I expect it would rank really, really well.
Tricia:
So I’ve wondered about this too. I’m wondering how this is gonna work. Because so Pam, if I understand what you’re saying, you’re saying eventually we’re all gonna be asking similar questions and it’s gonna be regurgitating the same answers. So how do you make that look different? And like right now we’re in the early stages. Right now we’re still in the early, we’re playing around with it, trying to figure out how to make this work. But I can see your concern and I have thought about the same thing. Well, eventually, is it going to just be saying, are we going to be giving the same answers to the same questions? How are we going to make that different or more creative? And also, I have been trying to figure out, I’ve just been trying to figure out how to use this as a creative person. I’ve been playing around with it. myself and so I just gave Daniel an example of an article I wrote with AI about what’s important in terms of a website, performance and accessibility and all that. I had tweaked it a little bit. I thought I had made it look pretty good. Right away he’s like, did you use AI for this? I’m like, yeah. He’s like, yeah, I can tell.
Pam:
Yeah.
Tricia:
So I don’t know, this is going to be interesting. I feel like we’re going to have to figure out exactly how to use this in a way that we are getting creative content, that it does still feel original. I think that that’s the biggest question right now is how are we going to do that? It’s interesting to me to talk to you and other people about how agencies are starting to incorporate that because some agencies are early adopters and they’re trying to figure out how to use that. I know somebody who works at a company who they just shut it down. They just told their employees they don’t want them using it because they felt like the stuff that was coming out of it was not original. Like they didn’t like how it was affecting the business. So this we’re in the early stages of this. And it’s going to be interesting to see how we figure out how to use it.
Pam:
I completely agree. I know agencies who use contract writers. are no longer using contract writers because they don’t want them using AI. They want original content so it will stand out. And that is where Google is heading. If everybody’s regurgitating the exact same thing some form, and that doesn’t mean you can’t use AI for blocks, right? Like, I mean, sometimes when I’m at a loss for a topic, you know, I’ll say, hey, AI, give me, you know, some topics that are relevant. Of course, I’m not using the probe. I’m using just the one that’s available for free. are the original one and it’s given me some great topics. But am I gonna use, let it write for this topic? No, I’m gonna send it to our writer who will do their own research. And I’m not saying they’re not pulling, they’re definitely pulling things from the internet, but they’re taking it and customizing it for our clients so it’s applicable to our clients. I even got feedback on a topic for one of our clients and he’s like, oh my gosh, this is… so relevant to what we’re dealing with right now. I got the topic off of AI, right? And then he goes, can you add these three points? And then it is like one of the best blogs that we’ve posted. So it’s not that AI is a demon or anything when it comes to blogs, but it is very much about using it in almost as an editor way, like going, all right, I’ll let you bring up some topics. I’ll let you write some stuff. if I’m not going to get in there and make it applicable and specific to our clients. And especially, I mean, the thing that makes me excited about AI is getting to know our client even better by going, what are the trends and forecasts in industry? Right? Like right now, I am going to talk to our boss about, you know, maybe having more access to the to the pro version. But I love the idea of being able to go, you know what, we can plan out a quarter ahead for a topic that’s very relevant. One of our clients is an RV dealer, right? And if his season is gonna be strong through the summer, through the fall, but then die off in November, which is probably typical, that’s where we’re gonna put our advertising. During that time, hammer down, and then just know we may back down in November, and be able to, as a marketer, it’s so interesting with business. We have to remind our businesses that we’re not an expert in their business. We’re their marketer. Right. It’s their job to help us go. What do you need from your marketing? Whereas for me, AI will be that thing that helps us understand them better without, uh, you know, having to go, okay, what’s next, what’s next? What do you need from us? You know, what’s important? What do you want to sell? Kind of thing. It’ll be that thing that makes them think this is somebody who knows me, knows me better, you know, not maybe not know. knows better, knows us better. And that’s the thing.
Pam:
And it’s a foundational start, but not as an end all on any level, on any level. And I will pin that test that was done with content that was just taken off of AI and not edited and put. It did rank, and then it fell off. And you do have to think about if everybody’s doing that exact same thing, nobody’s going to go to value search. And that’s the thing that’s interesting too, like moving forward search is basically what informational and transactional, right? Like information is what’s the spot on my foot. Transactional is where can I buy a cheap laptop, right? So I think informational is gonna be one of those things that especially as AI grows.
Daniel:
I was just going to say, and there’s also navigational. So informational, transactional, navigational.
Pam:
Yes. So the one that interests me is transactional, right? That’s for our clients. How does that change for some point? Is it all going to be ads through your website shows up? Because informational will be easy to go to chatGPT.
Daniel:
Well, I hesitate to wrap all of this around ChatGPT because there are some major competitors that are pretty fantastic, but with ChatGPT specifically, they’ve got plugins now for shopping. So you go to ChatGPT, you put in, I put in, something I can’t remember what the exact prompt was but it was something like branded suit for gala, small you know and then I gave it my dimensions and it went shopping for me and it brought back links to you know with images of the types of suits and how the branding could be implemented. And it brought back, I think it was three samples, it might’ve brought back five. But yeah, shopping, we don’t even have to go to Google for that. We can go to an LLM like ChatGPT using the plugins that are available to us. And right now, the market is tiny. There are only 500 plugins or is it 200? I mean it’s very small but that’s about to explode and if I were if I were a backend developer, I would be building plugins for chat GPT. But those plugins unleash its power. And soon you probably won’t need those plugins. Trisha has access to Google’s new search tool. And it will be very similar minus all of the plugins. It will have just those features baked in. So our shopping experiences are going to be, we’re going to be a little bit more specific. We’re going to learn specificity in our prompting. And with that specificity, then we’re going to have highly targeted, individualized responses, both for informational, which won’t, they’ll have zero click throughs because they’ll answer our questions, they’ll resolve our pain points, without having to navigate away so there’s zero clicks. And transactional, it will be direct to the one brand that resonates most. And if these tools improve in their functionality and their ability to deliver. then it will be single clicks. We won’t be going back. We won’t be going to a second or third. Our consideration stage of the funnel is going to be restricted down to the one that we liked the best from the look of the initial prompt result, right? We’re just gonna be like, that’s the one because it knows me. So it’s gonna change the landscape of search dramatically. And then that begs the question, so why do we need to start creating content for search results? Because the search engines are going to be scraping all of our content and delivering zero click-throughs. Right? So what’s in it for us to continue to create content? So that’s where the problem I see it coming down the line is, are we going to need to create content moving forward? And if so, what’s our motivator?
Tricia:
So here’s my thoughts on that. First of all, Pam, have you been playing with Google Labs at all? I did. I have been on the beta. Okay, yeah, I just got access to it the other day. It’s been really interesting so far. And it reminded me of a conversation. I think you had said that it’s going to be important to have… facts on your websites that it’s very easy for Google to find answers to for the AI, right? Something I noticed right away that I thought was interesting is that titles were very closely matching my search. So I put my search in and the title of the article, that the organic article would be very similar, very close. So… I thought that was interesting. But also, and it’s something else interesting to point out is I, so I’m working with a client right now who works for Google. And I’ve been talking to her a little bit and she says that content is gonna become even more important and SEO is gonna become even more important but done more in a more efficient way. So it’s gonna change. there and there’s going to be a need for it, but it’s going to change. And we’re going to have to zero in even, even more on, on what it is. We want Google to find, right.
Pam:
Right.
Tricia:
And that’s her opinion so far. But we were kind of talking about this. I don’t know from what I’ve seen so far. And again, I’ve just started playing around with it. So it’s at the very beginning. see what she’s saying that it felt like the results, the organic results that were coming up and I’m talking about there. So there’s this little, there’s an AI window that pops up at the top of the search, right? So you do your search and now what happens is this AI window pops up first. And in the AI window, there’s these three, well, it’s three initial organic articles that pop up inside the AI window. Okay, and you can also scroll through it to a couple more pages. And that’s what I meant by it felt like those, the articles that were being pulled up were very super specific to my search, like even more so than in the past. Like in the past, I don’t know, like sometimes it was kind of random what would come up. Like sometimes it was closely correlated, but sometimes it didn’t, you know? And this time, it was wow, almost like word-for-word what came up. So that’s what I think that she was saying is it’s gonna become even more important to have your keywords planted in your title and the content organized in a way that it’s gonna be super searchable. So when the AI is matching content to the search, it’s going to be very, very specific.
Pam:
Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, and that’s the thing, it’s like, with the GA4 update, and I love the podcast you guys did with me, I learned a lot from that one, if I’m not a part of that team. But it’s, you know, reporting that is real, as opposed to page clicks, you know, vanity metrics. I think it’s we have got to just get stronger with making the user experience even, you know, because we’re lazy on some level, right, as users. We want the answer and we don’t care how we get the answer. We just want the answer and we want the right answer. Right, so as marketers, it is about going and looking at going, how can we write content? How can, you know, like ads even, we use a platform that is AI driven, you know, kind of thing. And it’s like, our platform, like if a user has searched for a service, not necessarily even been to the website. it kind of knows that when that it knows where to show the ads and our conversion rate, especially with several of our clients that are just that have been on the platform a while, you know, it’s amazing because the ads are being shown to people that actually want to see the ads. Right. And I have this conversation all the time with my cat, you know, friends that aren’t in marketing. I’m like, yeah, you guys are opting out of, you know, being followed or being tracked or whatever. And you’re going to get We’ve lost ads for baby diapers and things that don’t appeal, that you’re interested in. And I don’t know anybody in my world that hasn’t bought something from an ad that they didn’t realize they needed, or they didn’t know that business existed. So on that level, I mean, that’s what makes this exciting. It takes us as marketers to a place where other businesses can’t casually go, you know what, I’m going to hire an intern. I mean, unless this intern is just amazing. And you know. and let them do my marketing. No, it’s going to become even more of a science. And I love that value add to our industry, more than you know. You know, like, because some of our clients are super smart. And they have said those things. Why don’t I just use AI to write my blog post? And the conversation you and I had previously, we all had previously, is my point. Yeah, everybody’s going to be writing that same thing. So how are you going to show if you’re putting the exact same stuff out, right? And it is a frontier, kind of like what Mia was describing as Dubai for GA4, for all of us. It just got better, to me. I don’t think it’s going to do away with our jobs. I think it’s just going to need to be better at it. We can’t casually do it.
Tricia:
Exactly. It’s going to make us work harder. I agree. And something that Mia also was saying in that podcast interview, which I agree was amazing, is that when she is looking at the data in GA4, she’s not just looking for the science, she’s looking for the empathy. Because what we’re doing is we’re solving people’s problems with digital marketing, right? So there’s the data, but then you have to look deeper and figure out what is that data really saying about the users? What are they really searching for? What do they really want? Right? So you take that aspect and GA4 is going to help us look deeper into that. And then you’re going to go and create the content and you’re probably going to be using AI. So now how can you… And you’re going to be using Google’s new search with AI. and you want it to closely match, but then you want it to closely match what your user is actually looking for, not just regurgitating some answer in the hope that this page is gonna pop up in a Google search because we have keywords in there. Right, like we’re gonna have to start doing a deeper dive. And that’s what I think is happening. That’s what’s happening. So we’re gonna have to start thinking, really thinking about what it is. our content needs to be saying. And I do think that it’s based on, again, empathy, really thinking about what it is people want, right? It’s not just about getting it to show up in the search results. Tricia Yeah, and we’re talking about the creative space too. That’s what we’re talking about here. I mean, we can see lots of, Daniel’s example of the plugins, that’s good. Daniel has been able to write plugins with AI. It’s so amazing. That’s different than the creative space. I think the creative space is where everybody’s like, okay, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do with this? How are we gonna make this work?
Pam:
I know.
Tricia:
Yeah, it’s gonna be interesting to see how that goes.
Pam:
I think it’s even it was even in photography right like there was a time I was blown away by you know pro photographers and now that everybody stopped the tools to at least be technically right you know like it’s lit it’s in focus you know the background blurred out all the you know stuff has been taken out that you know irrelevant to the image now what do we do that makes it interesting and I mean I mean, that is the thing of going, all right, all these new tools, it’s not making stuff, it’s not making images more interesting, it’s just making them more, you know, they’re great in the first pass, but is it something you want to hang on your wall in time? And I’m not saying it’s not possible, but I’m just saying when I scroll Instagram just casually, there’s very little that stops my scroll if it’s about an image, you know.
Pam:
I don’t think creativity is going to go away I think it’s going to get it’s going to be more imperative to stand out and so you’re not going to be able to just rely on the tools and create some image than anybody else could have created you know your job is to go well how can I use the tool but then put my own spin in it you know and I think it’s gonna be in that same way for songwriters or writers or poets industry that’s out there, it’s just like you still got to be able to stand out or you’re just one in the masses and you’re not going to make a living.
Tricia:
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of when, you know, like Photoshop first came out, right? Like everyone’s like, oh, look what I just did. And I just put this filter on here and look what this did. And then eventually, you know, everybody’s like, okay, wait a second here. This is a tool, this is a tool. And how can I use this tool to help me with my creativity, not just like do it for me, right?
Tricia:
Okay, well, we could talk about AI all day. It’s like the hot topic everywhere. Pam, another topic I just wanna go back to is just you and your success, pivoting into this new awesome career and job that you have. You were such a success story. That’s what I love about your story.
Pam:
Thank you.
Tricia:
What would you tell people who are trying to pivot like this? especially, let’s go back to this, especially people like us who are a little bit, you know, have more experience. I like that.
Pam:
Well, given our past conversation with AI, I think everybody’s going to have to take a look at what they’re doing. I think there’s going to be a lot of disruptions, and I think the idea is to not just give up, not just sit on the couch and wonder what bottle of wine you’re going to open, it’s just to go, all right, I have this skill set, and what can I do with it? I think about youth. They seem fearless. They’ll have a job and then they’ll quit it because it doesn’t interest them kind of thing. And I think that’s another thing that’s coming out. You’ll be able to, like just being able to work remotely. That has been a godsend for me. I love working remotely. I can’t even imagine sitting in traffic and driving to a job that I hate and then sitting in traffic to go home from a job that I hate, right? So I think… I just think that it’s one of those things about listening to your gut, like we started with and just went, all right, how can I make this work for me? And be as fearless as you can possibly be, you know? And I mean, I know there’s always like, you know, extenuating factors, but being fearless for me, which was paying that tuition when I didn’t have any money coming in and, you know, saying I’m going to give this amount of time every week to this class. paid off for me in more than just a job, it just paid off in like how I view life, it was life changing for me and I think anybody can do this if they just listen to their gut. I can’t even, you know, say it enough.
Tricia:
I totally agree with that. And I’m always saying, just do it. I mean, no, that’s cliche. That’s what Nike says. But it’s so true.
Pam:
Right?
Tricia:
When people ask me how did you start your business? Or, oh my gosh, I could never, you know, do what you’re doing. I’m not built that way. That’s what they’ll say. I’m not built that way. And I’m like, nobody’s. feels like they’re built that way. I didn’t feel like, you know, I don’t feel like I was built that way. I just, you just gotta try. And if it doesn’t work, then you try something else, but you don’t give up. You just keep going. Yeah.
Pam:
That’s it. There’s no failure in trying, right?
Tricia:
No. And also to what you were speaking about is to try not to dwell on the negative thoughts in your head about why it is it’s not gonna work for you. That’s another thing I see stopping people from fulfilling their potential is these negative voices telling, oh, well, it’s just not going to work because of this or I’m not or because of that. And you just have to like not, not let, don’t listen to those voices. Don’t listen to them.
Pam:
Right. No, we are the ones that are the hardest on ourselves in our heads, right? Like if people were talking to the way we talk to ourselves, we wouldn’t be friends with them, right? Like, and it truly is, it’s just, and that’s what’s so great about like being in contact with you and Daniel. It’s been one of those things like I love when we get together and, you know, hear what the other person’s doing and the fact that I get to be a part of that conversation. It means more than you know, Tricia, and I’m so grateful to both you and Daniel for that.
Tricia:
Ah, well, you are a delight. And again, you’re just one of those students that we feel, we feel proud. Like we, you know, Pam is a success story and maybe just maybe we played a little bit of a part in helping her get out there into the world.
Pam:
Yes, it was a big one. Thank you, thank you so much.
Tricia:
Of course.
Tricia:
Okay, so, yeah, I think we’re ready to wrap this up. I do want to ask, we always ask our podcast guests one final question. If Daniel, do you want to go ahead and ask the question?
Daniel:
Well, first off, Pam has been lovely having you, and I really appreciate you coming on and talking with us. I guess from a… I’m going to lead you, and then you can choose to go rogue however you want. But for somebody who’s older, trying to get into the digital marketing space, what… piece of advice would you give them?
Pam:
Okay, so I think the thing is it’s not getting comfortable with what you know. You know, like it’s going, you know what, there’s something better out there. There’s a better way to do things. You know, I’m willing to learn. I’m willing to, you know, look into things. And it’s just because when I talk to my friends who have retired and I have a couple of them, I mean, their world shut down so much if they’re not. If they don’t have a plan and you know, like for example AI all they’re focusing on is the negative you know, and then it starts to jade their view of the whole world and this life and You know how what we’ve been talking about is more from an abundance, you know of opportunity and so I think it’s this thing as an older person to do it’s not just getting into marketing, but keeping your mind open so you can be an interesting person and so you can live at least, you know, I look at the last third of my life engaged. I don’t wanna shut down and just stare at the TV and call it a day, you know? So it really is just being open to going, you know what, I’m gonna try something new today, whatever it is. And with marketing, with AI, man, we’ve got a whole huge place that a plane building is coming.
Daniel:
I love that.
Pam:
It’s just… stay open to new ideas and new ways.
Daniel:
I think that there’s a quote that repeats over and over in my head, and that’s, if you’re not uncomfortable, you’re not growing. And I think it’s easy to assume that when we are older, it’s time to stop growing. But then you watch the people who have retired, I think back to one of my coworkers, when I was a teacher at a high school, she’d been teaching for 40 years, she’d done her time and she was ready to retire and just enjoy the remaining years she had left with her husband, and she passed away six months after quitting. And that’s not to say that wouldn’t have happened, but I feel like the minute we stop being uncomfortable and we start sitting and relaxing into this imaginary beautiful world that we’ve cooked up in our head to make it worth all the all the pain and suffering up to that point is when life actually stops so that really resonates with me is get uncomfortable.
Daniel:
I really appreciate having you on our show today. And I appreciate our friendship as well, Pam. You’ve always been a standout student. and it sounds like your company really, really values you as well, which is important because I believe that they should. And to that end, I value you greatly and appreciate you coming on and speaking with us.
Pam:
Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed this.